If this is how America treats its friends...

[almostwitty]

So the UK stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the US against pretty much everyone else in launching a doomed war against Iraq, which sends Tony Blair out of office, potentially Gordon Brown with him and ushering in the Tories at the next general election ... and what does the UK get in return?

All European visitors to be forced to register with the Department of Homeland Security 72 hours before entering the United States on a visa-waiver system.

Erm... surely, the whole POINT of a visa-waiver system is so that you don't have to do bureaucratic things like registration, retinal scans, fingerprint IDs and all that?

It's the equivalent of asking your neighbour to help you burgular-proof your place, then thanking him and demanding that your neighbour registers with you three days before the next time he wants to visit.

I'd like to think Obama would change this when he gets into office. But he won't.

Ever wonder why we get the feeling that Bush/NASA's plans for a Mars colony aren't about exploration, but about setting up Planet America? ;)

Comments

[lmurph524.livejournal.com]

I personally don't think Obama is the best candidate. Actually, the UK military should hope that McCain gets elected. Obama would try to pull out the troops in mass and that just won't work. McCain at least recognizes that a massive pull out wouldn't be in the best interest of the Iraqis or for the US. Besides, Congress has to approve everything. All the campaigning is just retoric anyway. Without Congress's support, the President really can't do too much.
As for the Dept. of Homeland Security, I'd rather they erred on the side of caution instead of seeing another attack like the one on 9/11. If the situation were reversed, wouldn't you?

[almostwitty]

All that extra data isn't going to help stop a terrorist one iota.

If the intelligence services are tracking individuals, then they'll already know they're planning to fly to the US as soon as they book the ticket - because the name comes up on the ticket. And sure, they could change the name on the ticket - but then they could easily change the name they use when they sign up at the Homeland Security website.

Also, bear in mind that none of the 9/11 attackers had any prior history of anything, nor were they being tracked by anyone. So if their names had come up on this mythical databases, tehre'd be no red flag.

[almostwitty]

Either way, doing this is the equivalent of asking your neighbour to help you put up an extension, then you escort him out of your premises with a shotgun and you tell him to let you know three days before he want to visit.

[nikki-z.livejournal.com]

second metapher with the neighbour here. d'uh.
in france and germany, the Amis are 'our friends'.
And 'friends can disagree' and blabla.
And friends can fuck you over. Of course.

There is no 'protection' of this kind of terrorism that will efficiently help. The only way is to somehow cease to be a hated target. No idea what has to be done there *shrugs*..?! In case of doubt, you can always destroy another supporter country, say Syria or Iran next now ?

[sioneva.livejournal.com]

I would just like to point out that the UK suffered through MANY terrorist attacks, courtesy of the conflict in Northern Ireland, and while they may not have been to the same scale as the WTC attacks, the UK was far more reasonable and measured in its response (with little of the US's injured ego kneejerk reaction) than the US has been.

As a holder of both UK and US citizenship, I have to say that despite its outrageous cost, UK security precautions with regard to immigration are FAR more sensible than the US's, which treats EVERYONE entering the country as a terrorist. As anhedoniac points out below, the suicide bombers of September 11 were here legally on student visas with no red flags that would have brought them up even WITH these new regulations. Oh, and our own homegrown bomber, McVeigh, certainly wouldn't have come up on the system either...the new law will essentially have no effect at all except to decrease tourism and further reinforce the notion that the US is a massively reactionary, insulationist country that thinks everyone who isn't American is inherently dangerous (despite the majority of us who ARE American originally coming from somewhere else in the first place).

[choirgrrl.livejournal.com]

Well, this is only logical, as you know so many English are terrorists. *rolls eyes so far back she passes out*

lol.

[nikki-z.livejournal.com]

haha, britain, HAR HAR.
even if you lick it, a dirty ass stays always DIRTY.

Re: lol.

[madmosh-uk.livejournal.com]

A shame Blaire - and now Brown - seem to love the taste of shit, isn't it?

I'm not 100% clear on the implications of this "no, it's not a visa even though you have to apply for it to enter the country" thing. If you fill it in, and pass, does this mean you can walk blissfully through security with no risk of a "homeland security" officer on a bad day deciding he doesn't like your hairstyle, subjecting you to 48 hours in a cell with rapists, strip-searching you then shoving you on the first 'plane back to the UK at your own expense?

Or is that only if you remember to tick the "I am not visiting to blow anything up or act as a drug mule" box?

But seriously, will it effectively remove the hassle and worry of being kicked out at the airport? In which case, it's not that much of an issue. Unless you're flying on short notice. And assuming you can register before you pay for your flight, so if they do refuse you then you save some cash.

Re: lol.

[almostwitty]

Nope. I've been to America quite a few times on a visa-waiver. The last-but-one time I went, I was herded into immigration where I had to wait for about 20 mins while they phoned the UK and made a few spot checks on me, and refused to tell me why. Maybe it was because I was carrying a Michael Moore book.

All a visa waiver means is that it allows you to enter the US without having to apply for a visa. Pre-registering for the visa waiver pretty much amounts to applying for a mini-visa, if you will. Just less checks on your person - but can you imagine a family of four registering before they hit Disneyland? Nope, they'll just go to Disneyland Paris instead. Fortress America (hah!) has arrived.

Re: lol.

[madmosh-uk.livejournal.com]

If it's all done through a travel agent anyway, then they'll still likely go. After all, Joe Public probably won't even know about this until they've got everything booked and the agent tells them and hands them the forms.

[lmurph524.livejournal.com]

My point was that I would prefer my legislators err on the side of caution than be lazy.
Someone mentioned Timothy McVeigh, add the Unibomber to that and many other American terrorists. You can't tell me similar things have NOT happened in Britian or any other democratic country.
Does the visa waver crap suck? Yeah. Is it going to stop terrorists? Probably not. But does it make the average American feel a bit safer knowin that their government is doing what it can to protect its citizens? Yeah, it does. That's the whole purpose of it. Our leaders don't do things with individuals in mind. They do them with everyone (and thier own pocetbook) in mind. People in mass are stupid, scared creatures. Individuals are smart and see through the bullshit.

[almostwitty]

I personally would prefer everyone's legislators to use policies that work. Asking your allies' citizens to pre-register before arrival in your country is *not* going to stop or even deter them from entering the United States. How on earth could it? It's just going to piss off more people. How would you like having to pre-register before you could come to the UK?

And erm... yes, other countries have had years of experience in dealing with terrorists. The UK for instance, which had 20 years of Irish citizens being suspected for terrorist activities. Not once, in those 20 years, did they ask Irish citizens to pre-register before visiting the United Kingdom. And there's only a land border between them.

Your leaders, btw, have now mandated that all new passports must have electronic tags before people are allowed entry into the United States. Tags which carry personal biometric data UNENCRYPTED so that anyone with off-the-shelf equipment can read said data. Hell, my London Oyster card is more secure.

[almostwitty]

btw, what's your point exactly about home-grown terrorists, except to re-iterate the point that not all terrorists are nasty foreigners who would have to apply for entry into the USA first?

[lmurph524.livejournal.com]

First, someone else made a point about homegrown terrorists. I was basically pointing out that I'm not an idiot and am totally aware that there are homegrown terrorists.
Second, as I said, yes it sucks to preregister. If I had to do it to enter the UK, I would but I would also think it sucks ass.
Third, 20 years of Irish terrorism...yeah I know. And the technology to do what the US is doing now wasn't AVAILABLE then.
Fourth, the freakin' CIA knew of the potential attack on the US and did nothing about it. The excessive security measures are to make the average joe feel safe. That's it. That's the whole point.
Fifth, the US cannot say it's okay for the Brits to come in without following these procedures but not the French or the Spaniards.
This disagreement is up there with people who bitch about our elected leaders but don't vote. It sucks, but it is the world we live in.
Everyone would prefer legislation that works. But because of the stupid party system that we have, Americans suffer. We have no national healthcare plan, our elderly can barely survive because of the cost of medication. Medication that is regulated by a government organization that allows pharmeceutical companies to add placebos to drugs that they are losing their patents on just to get a new patent and RAISE the cost of medication. We have a social security system that has been run to the ground and won't have any funds in it by the time I'm eligible. The US has serious problems. We have a major immigration issue with Mexicans sneaking past our borders and then living off the welfare system because the INS can't find anyone.
The visa waiver issue pissing off our neighbors is just one of many problems. Will Obama fix this? Doubtful. He has no experience with foreign policy. He's just a smooth talker. Will McCain fix it? Doubtful. He's going to be more focused on Iraq and the strugglng economy.
Regardless about whether we agree or disagree, there are two sides to this coin. Neither side is right.

[almostwitty]

Of course there are much bigger problems that are higher up in priority terms than making it easier for tourists to visit the us. But the latest ruling didnt need to be enacted - its like putting fuel on a fire. It just didnt need to be done. Imagine the cost of implementing the new system - to the us taxpayer. And its not as if your average voter was demanding this legislation. Also i think it applies to canadians too ...

btw if people are illegally moving to the us via mexico or canada then presumably they have no paperwork. So how can they claim welfare? I imagine if i turned up to a us welfare office asking for money but being unable to offer any proof of eligibility i would be shown the door very quickly.

[lmurph524.livejournal.com]

You would be surprised at how easy it is to defraud the government. Each agency is too busy to confer with other agencies. It's a constant power struggle. I see people everyday who collect SSI (Social Security Insurance) for no real reason. The illegal Mexicans can easily forge social security cards with some blank cards and a typewriter. Companies who hire them aren't aware of it until the beginning of the year when the Social Security Administration contacts the HR person and tells them that a number is invalid or the number doesn't match the name.
You mention the cost of implementing the visa waiver and the waste of funds. Well, it can't be as bad as a failed fence along the US - Mexican border! Add on top of that the cost of development.
It is just one of many ways to waste money. It sucks ass.

where would we be without fear mongering?

[shoshannad.livejournal.com]

The whole thing makes me ill. I just spent a weekend with people from around the country at a DeLorean car show and someone found my "Barak to the Future" (done in the proper logo, of course) entirely unamusing because they would never EVER support Obama. I don't even feel that much venom towards McCain and I wouldn't vote for him. (although they were amused when I told them about the shirt with Clinton and Obama on it that said "bros before hos". ) They are from middle america... but I've even talked to people here in New Jersey and they are convinced that Barak Obama is a Muslim and that it is a bad thing. People that I thought were smarter than that. Another person said that we couldn't elect him because he wouldn't support Israel.... until I pointed out that no one in the oval office would be silly enough to think that we could survive for a single second without Israeli intelligence... and then he agreed.

Its all about keeping people afraid - and if Obama stopped the visa thing SO many people would say he was soft on security - they want things in place no matter how much time/money it wastes - because they don't think it through. We are a society of instant gratification because we want to move from one thing to the next so we don't have to see how our world is crumbling. Its about what is fast and what is easy, not about what is right (see American's skyrocketing debt).

Its a sad state of affairs, and I haven't a clue how to change it.