Forgetfulness or racism?

[almostwitty]

The Evening Standard carries a story about a black couple, outraged that their waitress scribbled ‘black couple’ on their bill, when they were the only couple dining.

The thing is, I’ve kind of done this myself while running my parents’ Chinese takeaway, scribbling descriptive notes on their order because I have a huge tendency to forget which order belongs to which customer. I’ve even done it when there’s only one customer – after all, another one will inevitably walk in and I’ll get all confused.

I’m not so sure I’ve gone as far as just describing someone in terms of their race, but there have been other unflattering descriptions such as baldy, NHS glasses etc. But if I went to a restaurant, and saw that scribbled on my order was “fat balding Chinese man”, I’d be a tad put out to say the least.

It’s certainly racism in the sense of discrimination against or antagonism towards other races, but there are probably bigger battles to fight. Like the woman at Question Time taking Jack Straw to task over African-Caribbean versus Afro-Caribbean while one of Britain’s biggest bigots sits on a panel next to Jack Straw. And then there’s the controversy in China over a “Chinese Idol” contestant who’s half-Chinese, half-black…

Ooooh it’s complicated. But I’d rather we just end up dealing with people based on whether they’re nice to us or not…

Mirrored from almost witty.

Comments

[chiller.livejournal.com]

It’s certainly racism in the sense of discrimination against or antagonism towards other races

IS it?

I don't see it. They weren't being denied a service or called a name, they were being described. Is saying that someone's black per se insulting?

And damn, that restaurant needs to number its tables.

[almostwitty]

Well, IMHO, purely in the dictionary definition it is. Because by identifying them on the grounds of race alone, you're making a distinction/discrimination between them that you wouldn't necessarily make with a majority-colour couple.

But as I said, there are very practical reasons for doing this, and it's not racist in the sense of evil discrimination.

I am quibbling with terms at this point, in a very scientist "cannabis isn't as dangerous as alcohol" kinda way.

[chiller.livejournal.com]

I worry that descriptions are viewed as racist, purely because it suggests that blackness itself is inherently something that shouldn't be mentioned. I wish it was viewed as a statement of pride:

"You're black."
"YES, I am!" etc.

But if the couple are offended, they're offended and one can't suggest that they are wrong to be offended. It just seems a shame.

[nicnac.livejournal.com]

To me it seems to be majority/minority issue. It isn't very likely that someone would write 'white couple' on a bill in the US/UK, but they might very well do so in a country where a different skin tone is the norm, so I don't think I'd call it discriminatory as such.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I might if I were black. What I'd write is whatever makes it easy for me to remember someone. I'm white, most of my friends are white, so white isn't a trait that describes someone in my mind. While black or asian are traits that describe way less people that I come into daily contact with.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

I agree here. I see no racism in calling someone black or asian or hispanic. I get really irritated when people refuse to describe someone by race.

"Which one is he? Well, you know. he's tall and he has brown eyes. I think he was wearing a blue coat."
"You mean the only black guy in the entire building?"
"yes, that one"

Irritating as shit. Just say, "the black guy". it's not an insult. He's black. it's not racist to notice someone's race.

[einochi.livejournal.com]

There's a total double standard in some cases. A black person will stamp their feet about being a black man, whine about losing their cultural identity but then if someone labels them as the thing they fight to be seen as, they throw a fit.

I've been talked/written about as the goth, the pink haired one, the really pale girl. While sometimes there's been less flattering descriptions, like the skinny on, the big nosed girl. Well it's simply descriptive, I am pale, was skinny, do have a huge nose.

As above though, table numbering works well :)

[einochi.livejournal.com]

Oh and adding to...

"But if I went to a restaurant, and saw that scribbled on my order was “fat balding Chinese man”, I’d be a tad put out to say the least."

But if you looked and saw it said, "Awesome friendly sexy chinese guy", or if the black couple saw, "Amazingly friendly cute black couple", I wonder if that would change things.

[almostwitty]

Actually, even positive stereotyping can backfire. For instance, Chinese people are often stereotyped into really good with numbers, IT geniuses, good cooks and great at kung-fu.

I'll readily admit I am good with numbers, but I'm no good at kung-fu nor am I a good cook - and to assume that I am good at numbers is a bit annoying. Especially since I'm not an accountant.

I imagine single black men get slightly annoyed at potential dates assuming they have a huge wang, when maybe they're the sensitive types who want to read you their poetry...

[anivair.livejournal.com]

I have never really been convinced that positive stereotypes are even close to as harmful as negative ones. I just don't see why people assuming you're good with numbers is a negative supposition. if you're not, then big deal. it makes you just like almost everyone else. And if you are, I don't think it somehow minimizes our ability.

I think that the real problem with racism is seeing people as inferior, not superior in some way. Also, the really bad racists, IME, tend to view an entire race as not as good, rather than better at some things and worse at others (what I like to call the D&D racism).

I've heard it said that saying that Asians are good with math is tantamount to saying that they are physically weak, but I think that's more a cultural nerd stereotype than anything that is actually racism (because we tend to think of those two things as incompatible, when they are not. It would apply to anyone good with numbers (IT geeks get that same thing applied to them).

And to be fair, a lot of it is cultural. I've seen how schools in china and japan teach math and it pretty much blows the way most American schools teach it out of the water. It's hard to counter that stereotype when Asian countries seem to be kicking it's ass.

[almostwitty]

Well, one way where positive stereotyping backfires is when people start rebelling against it eg Asian teenagers forming gangs to try and dispel the model minority myth - ironically by emulating 'black' gang culture, to rather violent effect...

[anivair.livejournal.com]

That's a solid point, but to be fair, i'm not sure if that's rebelling against that specifically or if it's just teens rebelling because they're teens and that's the excuse they hit upon. But it is the most valid reason i've heard in ages, so it gets points.

[almostwitty]

I should of course, point out that not all black people are alike. Some will be relaxed about this, some will not be relaxed about it.

Oooh it's confusing - unless we just treat people with no pre-conceptions. But then we're all treading on eggshells, and nobody wants that either...

[einochi.livejournal.com]

Oh of course. I wish there was a solution, but honestly unless my daughters dream that one day every culture will have interbred so much that we are all one colour, well then there's always going to be issues.

Sometimes the headache that comes with the contemplation of infinity is less painful :)

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't mind some preconceived notions (they're only human) as long as people are willing to ditch them. I don't mind thinking that a black guy probably has a big member or that an Asian is probably good at math or that a gay man is probably a better dancer than me, as long as I'm also open to the idea that a) I have a decent chance of being wrong* and b) none of these things really matter anyway.


*except about the dancing. Not that all gay men can dance really well, but even if they have no legs, they dance better than me. it's a factor of how poor a dancer I am, though.

[travelsintown.livejournal.com]

Oh people make such a fuss about things. Would they prefer 'the ugly couple' or the 'couple who have nothing to say to each other' or the 'couple who have bad dress sense'?
In my catering days when dealing with the public not sitting at numbered tables, say in a bar staff would use all manner of descriptions to communicate who they meant- whether it be 'the lady in pink' or the 'family with red hair' If a couple were the only black/asian/whites in the room then that might be the easiest way to define them.

Yes there are bigger battles to fight. Totally agree with einochi's (who should be referred to as the girl with gorgeous eyes!) point about double standards.

[einochi.livejournal.com]

Ooh, you get virtual snuggles and cookies :D

[kiri-l.livejournal.com]

This is why you give the tables #'s. that way you can write in the corner (or on the back) #14 and circle it. no one gets offended and you know which ticket belongs to what table.

hostess management trick # 7.

(p.s. you keep the no so polite descriptions verbal and out of earshot...)

[almostwitty]

But there aren't tables in your local Chinese/pizza takeaway/takeout.

Having said that, Chinese takeaways are comparatively rare in the USA. Wonder why that is...

[kiri-l.livejournal.com]

they so are not. and most have tables. even if there are only two. The town I grew up in had three. (count em 3!) and two were actual restaurants that also did takeaway. one was just a takeaway. Now there are five.

Out here... well out here they are more plentiful. (do not go into the southwest.. *shudders* it is a travesty. they don't even have chopsticks. and they serve the most horrid un-chinese food items *shudders again*

[almostwitty]

If it's got a table where people bring your food, it's a restaurant not a takeout ;)

A takeout is purely for people to come in, pick up their food and go. There's nowhere for them to sit.

and most European places definitely don't do "Chinese" food let alone chopsticks. But hey, that means more for me. :D

[kiri-l.livejournal.com]

The restaurants do take away too. =) Well the oldest ones in town do. The newer ones don't.

The original take away place eventually put in two small tables (for people who needed someplace to eat a quick lunch cause they couldn't take it back to their work - or if it was nasty outside. Mostly neighboring businesses. ) literally it is just two very small tables and chairs off to the side and enough space to eat if you are *very careful*. In the evenings people sit there and wait if they arrive before their orders are ready. The other takeaways don't even have that afaik.

Out here it is a different ball game. You do realize I'm talking about two different regions of the country... right?